WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:15.759 The desire to leave the DDR existed for a long time - but as with many citizens of the DDR 2 00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:26.260 in the beginning / middle of the year 89 very strengthened, because many have dared to go and you always wanted to protect your family. 3 00:00:26.260 --> 00:00:35.280 My mother, my brother, who were all still living in the DDR - that's why they thought about it for a long time and did not do it, 4 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:43.340 but for me it was always clear, as soon as the possibility would arise, that I would go too. 5 00:00:43.340 --> 00:00:48.640 Moderator: How did you leave the DDR? 6 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:58.100 I once had the chance to go in 1986 - I did not use that opportunity at that time - 7 00:00:58.100 --> 00:01:08.140 that would have been a way through Czechoslovakia my cousin had arranged for me - almost organized - 8 00:01:08.180 --> 00:01:17.599 but in the year before that my father died and I could not leave my mother alone. That's why I said we'll postpone it. 9 00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:23.579 Then in 1989 I had the opportunity because so many left as Hungary opened the borders. 10 00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:26.060 There was no stopping for me. 11 00:01:26.060 --> 00:01:35.519 But then, when I did not use the chance in 1986, which was good on the one side, because I met my wife in 1987 12 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:50.640 and we traveled to Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic from 1987 to 1989 and then we have said in Spring 1989, 13 00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:56.799 in the summer we go back to Hungary and see how it develops then. 14 00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:11.340 My wife got a visa for Hungary in 1989 - Hungary was then visa mandatory for DDR citizens and mine was rejected. 15 00:02:11.340 --> 00:02:16.719 That was this arbitrariness of the state - who could simply say we let one enter and the other not. 16 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:21.219 Of course that was one more reason to go. 17 00:02:21.219 --> 00:02:27.199 We spent a lot of time thinking about what we do, how we do it, 18 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:28.699 and then my wife... 19 00:02:32.500 --> 00:02:36.759 Can we interrupt for a second? 20 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:42.300 and then my wife left alone with our child. 21 00:02:43.060 --> 00:02:51.000 And I brought her down to the Czech border and I was not allowed to go with her because I did not have a visa. 22 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:55.879 Moderator: And then you went back? That was hard? 23 00:02:55.879 --> 00:03:07.520 This was the worst moment of my life, I have to say ... 24 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:14.879 But you can see that at that time it was not foreseeable at all, what happens there. 25 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:23.659 Perhaps many today wonder: How could he let his wife and child go … 26 00:03:23.659 --> 00:03:27.039 Moderator: But you did have hope... 27 00:03:27.060 --> 00:03:33.139 That goes so close to me… 28 00:03:33.139 --> 00:03:34.800 Moderator: I see… 29 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:42.340 Our hope was already the big word freedom - freedom in everything - 30 00:03:42.340 --> 00:03:48.860 it's not just about traveling - it was about the freedom of expression 31 00:03:48.919 --> 00:04:02.479 every neighbor, every work colleague - you had to always think, what do you say, how do you say it- can you trust at all and just like that ... 32 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:12.039 There were almost no normal conversations at the end .... you always had to pay attention to what you say and to whom you say it. 33 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:23.199 Moderator: Would you tell again how the escape was for you, which way you came back to your family? 34 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:30.759 After I took my wife to the Czech border, I went back home, there were a few things which I settled 35 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:39.160 and clearing out did not go, because then the neighbours would have noticed, then everyone would have known that I was certainly not moving houses. 36 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:46.199 When my wife then reported from the West, from Fechta, I have set in motion. 37 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:56.519 Not on the Elbe, because the border controls were very hard. Many died there. 38 00:04:56.519 --> 00:05:09.839 So I chose the other side. There was the Oder as a border river to Poland and in the south - in the country triangle - Czech Republic, Poland, East Germany, 39 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:15.699 there would be the Neisse, it was a relatively small border river, 7/8 m wide. 40 00:05:15.699 --> 00:05:33.019 I had a cousin there - he had shown me a place that was very dilated and I crossed there at night in the dark, when the moon was shining, the river. 41 00:05:33.019 --> 00:05:43.860 Then I oriented myself along the power lines, since they always go somewhere. Then I came to a Polish village - 42 00:05:43.860 --> 00:05:56.120 I can not remember the name of it anymore. There I addressed young people if they could help me and show me the way. 43 00:05:56.120 --> 00:06:09.480 The father of one teenager then drove me to the next bigger city. He bought a ticket, of course I payed it myself, but he went to the counter, so it does not attract negative attention. 44 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:12.779 And then the trip went to Warsaw. 45 00:06:12.779 --> 00:06:17.560 Moderator: And there you then visited the West German Embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany? 46 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:18.740 Yes. 47 00:06:18.740 --> 00:06:23.360 Moderator: And you were accepted without any problems? 48 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:31.899 Yes, we then had to go to the DDR embassy in Warsaw, but there was a West German ambassador with us - 49 00:06:31.899 --> 00:06:41.339 at the time we had refused to enter the DDR embassy because the DDR embassy was state territory. 50 00:06:41.339 --> 00:06:53.399 We only wanted to go in there if a German representative was present and we were assured in writing that nothing would happen to us there. 51 00:06:53.399 --> 00:07:07.879 Since we had to hand over our DDR ID cards and we were - formally - denied the DDR citizenship and then we got a new identity card. 52 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:19.800 The idea was whether we would be brought to the West by bus, train, or plane, but the DDR government was so stubborn. 53 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:31.040 we were not allowed to cross the DDR area by train or bus, so they went that far that we were then finally flown out of Warsaw by plane. 54 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:39.480 The plane was not allowed to fly over the DDR area. That's how crazy they were at that time and I don´t know why since there was no explanation at all. 55 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:51.420 And at the time there were still members of the national security, that have held discussions with each individual, 56 00:07:51.420 --> 00:08:00.120 at least, those who wanted it, there were people returned ... also from Warsaw. 57 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:10.019 We felt like there were 30 people in and out with 25 - the rest was left in there voluntarily - for whatever reason. 58 00:08:10.019 --> 00:08:17.779 Moderator: Could one ignore the fact that on the 9th November 1989 the border opens? 59 00:08:17.779 --> 00:08:27.480 No, believe me, we all would not have taken that on us - I also speak for the others, not just for me - if it was even foreseeable that it would be going so fast. 60 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:43.379 On the one hand, people dare say something to do something, but on the other hand, this SED government has remained so stubborn - 61 00:08:43.379 --> 00:08:51.659 As the DDR was massively abandoned, you noticed that now we have to do something. 62 00:08:51.659 --> 00:09:01.960 Then this speech by Tschabowsky - I still believe that it was a mistake -"(...) when does that have validity?" "I believe from now on. " 63 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:06.159 It showed how incompetent these people were. 64 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:15.159 Moderator: How did you feel when you were back with your family and on the 9th of November the wall came down? How was that for you? 65 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:22.340 That was joy - pure joy, astonishment, joy. 66 00:09:22.340 --> 00:09:33.460 So I probably would have gone in November or December because I had such a dissatisfaction in me. 67 00:09:33.460 --> 00:09:36.159 I don't want to use the word hate, but a dissatisfaction. 68 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:43.000 Because unlike others, nothing happened to me in the DDR. I have never experienced suffering, like many others. 69 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:52.360 I know from many others how much suffering they have experienced and therefore the joy was already great when the wall came down. 70 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:59.179 but I had no desire to go back, not even a minute, even until today. 71 00:09:59.179 --> 00:10:07.799 I went there for the first time at the end of 1990. 72 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:18.940 Maybe as a little story - I did not take our one year old son with us. I only went with my wife. 73 00:10:18.940 --> 00:10:23.600 Even in 1990 I did not dare. 74 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:34.279 Moderator: You talked certainly about your escape or your departure and certainly about what will change now everything? 75 00:10:34.279 --> 00:10:39.240 My mother and brother have been very positive, there have been no changes at all, 76 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:53.779 but from their environment there were already comments: “You who buggered off, you can not have a say anyway.” “We did that here.” Such statements existed. 77 00:10:53.779 --> 00:10:56.240 Moderator: And what did they mean? 78 00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:10.299 Yes, you went away and we made this revolution here. That people escaped was of course crucial to the fact that all this happened ... 79 00:11:10.299 --> 00:11:18.980 I never regretted my decision of that time - not a second!